An interview with Zonovy Rabinovich by Mike Hally in preparation for his book Electronic Brains

Transcript :

Zinovy Rabinovich interview by Mike Hally. [Date of recording not known].

Transcription and editing by Jon Hales, volunteer at CCH

[The interview was conducted via an interpreter. The transcription software was able to translate the audio recording where the spoken language was Ukrainian. This results in the transcription having duplicate text. Most of the duplication has been removed in the English transcript].
The three participants are identified as: : ZR: Zinovy Rabinovich; TRN: Translator and INT: Mike Hally. 
The interview was conducted as preparation for a radio programme and was also cited in the book by Mike Hally: Electronic Brains: Stories from the Dawn of the Computer Age]. 
The editor's clarifications and comments are indicated by square brackets].

TRN: Okay, so he says that my name is Zinovy and my patronymic name is Lvovich.

ZR: My last name is Rabinovich.

TRN: Well, here you can see my report in this book.
 Okay, so this report was approved by Glushkov and Lebedev, and it's a very interesting fact.
 And Lebedev and Glushkov are the main, the most important representatives, of the Soviet computer science.
 And they received the name of pioneers of computer science.

TRN: He says that everything began in Ukraine, because at first Lebedev was in Ukraine.
 I started to work with Lebedev at his laboratory in 1948 [when he was aged 30 years].
 Before this I worked at the war plant.
 Lebedev's laboratory was called the Laboratory of Automatic Management.
 And at first we worked at automatic systems of...
 Automatic systems of management of electric systems.
 And besides, we worked on automatic management of space systems.
 And so my dissertation concerned this topic.
 And then it was, it seems to me, in August of 1948 when Lebedev announced, said that our laboratory would work on another topic, on another problem, on computer science.
 And I was, I personally was very astonished, because I thought that we were busy with....
 We were busy with such a high theory, and now we will work on these 'arithmometers'.

INT: Calculating machines?

TRN: Yes, calculating machines.
 And then Lebedev told me that I didn't understand anything.
 So he explained [to] me that computer science gets very important now. So now it's getting the main significance or importance as the nuclear power.

INT: If I could ask a question, what was Ukraine like at that time? What was Kyiv like just after the war? I've heard it was badly damaged.

TRN: Kyiv was restored very, very quickly.
 There is a place, some area near Kyiv, which is called Feofania. So there was a cathedral, a monastery.
 The cathedral was very much damaged, and...

INT: Sorry, the monastery was very.... It's a monastery, not a cathedral.

TRN: I mean that there is a cathedral where a laboratory was organized, a laboratory where some constructions were not even investigated, but may be explored.
 So there were some experiments there, inside of this cathedral, particular cathedral.
INT:  It was a cathedral, not a monastery?

TRN: There was a monastery, but the monastery had a cathedral, which you can see now.
 By the way, now it is very well restored. It's very nice and it's very high.

 Now the cathedral is restored by the forces of the public and religious [divine] services are working there.
 This is, by the way, the same thing.
 Now this cathedral has been restored. It's very nice.
 And there are divine services there.

TRN: And near the cathedral there was a next hotel for pilgrims.
 Before the revolution it was a hotel.
 Then at this house [building] there was a hospital for the mentally ill.
 Then this house was transmitted to the Academy of Sciences.
 Then it was restored and the laboratory of Lebedev, that worked on the creation of computers, was situated there.
 And in the end of 1948, the laboratory began to work on creation of the computer.
 But Lebedev had already designed, or had already elaborated, all [the] principles of creation of the computer.
 So he made all drafts by his own hand.
 These principles were almost the same as the principles of von Neumann.
 And these principles were not known in the Soviet Union. And these principles are given in this book.
 The main active participants of work on the creation of the computer were Dashevsky, Shkobara and Pogrebinsky.
 Dashevsky is already dead, Shkobara is very ill and Pogrebinsky went to Israel.

INT: What did you do? ... What was your role?

TRN: When the work on this computer was being done,  I was busy with another problem, so I was finishing the work on space projects.
 So the original principles of the computer were worked on by an analog computer.
 So the principles of it were proposed by Lebedev.
 It was done for Moscow. The [computer] was made for the Rocket Institute.
 And the money received from this institute was made by MESM.
 Because at that time this direction was not recognized in the Academy.
 And at that time the Academy did not accept this trend, this work.
 So MESM was made on money received for the first...
 Okay, so money received from the Rocket Institute were used to make MESM.
 So the work of Lebedev was recognized only when people saw that something very great was being done.

INT: I'm wondering about what happened in those years between 1948 and 1951. Can you tell me about making MESM, designing it?

TRN: Original arithmetic was made. Parallel arithmetic [calculations].
 Asynchronous management was made. Parallel arithmetic.
 Okay, so the parallel arithmetic was done as well as an asynchronous management.

INT: Synchronous. Synchronous. 

TRN: Asynchronous. Insynchronous. Not synchronous.

INT:  Synchronous.

TRN: So MESM has such well-done arithmetics that the next machines had nearly the same arithmetics.
 In this book you can read all this, so it's told very ... detailed.
 I want to tell some words. I think that it is interesting. Well, I want to tell about our life. So we lived in this laboratory continuously.
 I mean we lived there for the first two years until the sample [preliminary computer] began to work.
 There was a policeman who was our guard. 
The entrance was closed.
 And even Lebedev with his family lived there.
 Lebedev lived in this house [building] that was a hotel.
 We worked [the work continued for] 24 hours per day.
 So some people went to bed and other people were awakened and went to work.
 So it took only two years to make a totally new technique.
 On the 6th of November in 1950 ...
 the first problem was solved by MESM.

INT: Was that very exciting?

TRN: No, at that time it was very quiet and modest.
 We just gathered together and drank some wine because of this.
 And so we submitted a report to the Institute of Electrotechnics.
 So the report was like this. MESM solved the first problem.
 So the Soviet obligation for the 7th of November was made.
 There was tradition at that time.
 And then some commission came and saw this result.
 And the commission made ... presented some recommendations ... for the further improvement of MESM.
 That is, the transformation of MESM from a model into an experimental model.
 And then the commission presented some recommendations to make from this MESM a sample [development] device.
 So some external devices were made.
 And I personally worked on these devices.
 And then the state commission came to us in December of 1951.
 So MESM was accepted as a sample [development] device of BESON.

INT: And what sort of problems?

TRN: I also want to say some words about Lebedev.
 So he was acquainted with his family. This [photo?] is his family, all his children, grandchildren and so on.
 Lebedev was an absolutely unique person. I have never met such people in my life.
 And I want to make such a comparison.
 I would like to make this comparison. I put all the words, all the people and compare them as to their intellect.
 [...] one person, his intellect is higher than another one.
 But you can't find Lebedev there.
 He stands absolutely separately. He is absolutely special.
 His intellectual abilities can't be compared to anybody's.
 He wanted to play piano very much.
 And his sister is a very famous artist.
 You can find this information in Malinovsky's book.
 So after MESM, some other computers were designed. For example, SESM and KYIV.
 And it was Lebedev who elaborated principles of these machines.
 SESM was one of the first machines in the Soviet Union.
 And it was recognized in the United States of America and the book concerning it was published there.
 It was maybe one of the first Soviet books that were published in America.
 And then Lebedev moved to Moscow.

INT: I was just wondering .... How much did you know about what was happening in the West at that time?

TRN: We didn't know almost anything.
 And when Lebedev presented his report about MESM in Germany, it was something like a boom. 
It was a special state decision to present this report concerning Besom to show that we can do something.
 We, Soviet people, can do something.

INT: Okay, so first, please introduce yourself.

INT: This is Boris Malinovsky, who is still working in the Institute of Cybernetics by Glushkov.
 And he is an academician of the Academy of Sciences.
 Zinoviy Lvovich adds that he is a Professor.
 Well, I want to add that people who were also working on the first machines, so people who lived at the time when Lebedev lived, [...]

TRN:  Neumann, originally, and others have never seen each other.
 It was the time after the war, [...] and all works were done secretly, in secret.
 And America told about its secrets earlier than anyone else.
 And the Soviet Union, of course, was the last in this list.

INT: So is that why a lot of people in the West don't know about the early Soviet computers?
 A lot of people in the West think the Americans invented everything to do with computers.  This is probably why, if it was kept secret.
Is this why not much is known in the West about the Soviet computers?

TRN:  Yes, you are right.

ZR: In 1996, in America, a very big book by Professor John Lee was published.

TRN: Professor John Lee published his very big book in 1996 in America, and it had 800 pages.
 This book's title is "Computer Pioneers."
 It contains biographies of 249 scientists.
 Only two men who lived in the Soviet Union are told about in this book.
 But I think that one could mention about 50 scientists who are also quite important, significant.

INT: 50 Soviet scientists. 

TRN: 50 Soviet scientists, maybe it's the minimum.
 And this book doesn't tell about Lebedev, absolutely anything.
 One page is dedicated to Glushkov. Tells us about Glushkov.
 Glushkov founded information technologies in Ukraine.
 He created a great Institute of Cybernetics that is well known all over the world.
 This book contains only the things that are usually written when a person is dead.

INT: Obituary.

TRN:  Only obituaries are given in this book.
 And the second scientist that is mentioned in this book is Yershov.
 Now the wall that was built between the West and the East didn't exist at that time. It was already ruined.
 Many delegations visited the Institute of Cybernetics in Kyiv and the Institute of Mechanics in Moscow.
 The Institute of Mechanics in honour of Lebedev.
 So these were American delegations.
 Yet in this book of the American Professor who worked on the history of computer science, there was nothing that concerned work that was done in the Soviet Union.
 There is the Museum of Science in London.
 It gathers devices that were created, that were elaborated in different ages, maybe in the 15th century.
 So very many different devices are gathered there.
 In 1976, this museum bought [chartered?] a plane.
 The plane flew to Novosibirsk.

ZR: And the BESMA-6, the best Lebedev plane [computer], was bought and brought to London, to this museum.

TRN: And this museum bought the best machine of Glushkov, which is called BESMA-6, so it was brought to London.
 So you can find this machine in London.
 I asked why they bought this machine.
 The answer was that it was the best machine in Europe.

ZR: BESMA-6.
 In 20 years, when Lebedev began to develop machines, he created 15 types of machines.

TRN:  And during 12 years, when Lebedev worked on creating and designing machines, he created 15 machines.
 The first machine and some of the next ones used lamps [valves] instead of transistors.
 Like all the first machines, Lebedev's first machines used lamps [valves].
 I don't know the term.

INT: Tubes, valves. Tube is American, valve is British.

ZR:  Yeah, yeah.

INT: So can you say valves, if you say that again?

ZR:  Yeah, okay.

INT: Can you just say that answer again?

TRN: So these first machines used valves.
 And the next machines used transistors.
 And machines that were made in the '60s and the beginning of the '70s years used integrated circuits.
 When studying the world history of computer science,
 I couldn't find a scientist who had the same creative potential, creative power.
 So he began with machines who used valves [tubes], and he finished with machines that used integrated circuits.
 And all these machines had the type or the level that is considered to be a supercomputer.
 Super machines.
 So he worked only on the most complex machines.
 So MESM was the first machine in continental Europe.
 Yeah, before it, the machine was made in England.
 Machine of this time was made in England.
 This machine was called EDSAC.
 In 1998, an international conference took place in Kyiv.
 So we had the honour to invite here Maurice Wilkes, and he came here.
 So he was awarded an Honorary Doctor of the Academy of Sciences of Ukraine.
 So I transmitted this Diploma of Doctor to this person in Cambridge.

TRN: And now I would like to return to Lebedev. I think that without doubt he was a genius person.
 So you can find words about this in articles, in some books of his pupils.
 And the president of the Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, Boris Paton, also thinks so and says such words about Lebedev as a genius person.
 And the German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche has a very nice expression.
 A mark of a genius person is the ability to give a trend, to give a direction.
 The MESM machine was the first in the world
 where parallel processing was used.

INT: Can you say that again, where parallel mode of processing was used?

TRN:  Parallel arithmetic.
 So this principle became the main [design] for all cybernetics.
 I mean, Japanese, America and so on.
 And the last machines of Lebedev were multiprocessing.
 I came to Kyiv when MESM was already working.

INT: Can you say again:  'The machine had 6000 valves'.

TRN: Yes, so this machine, I mean MESM, had 6000 valves.
 When it was switched on, the temperature increased and it became more than 50 degrees.
 So the machine was situated on the ground floor and the building, the house [building], was two-storied.
 So we put [took] off the ceiling and we made ventilation.

INT: You removed the ceiling.

TRN:  There was another very interesting situation.
 When the first sample [test] problem was prepared,
 two mathematicians prepared it in machine codes.
 So they made their calculations in a binary system.
 And they were sitting in different rooms.
 They didn't speak to each other.
 And when the machine began to calculate, first everything was right.
 And everything coincided with their calculations made by hand.
 But then the machine began to give an answer that had a one plus, so the answer plus one.
 So they began to verify, to check the work of the machine. When the tests were held, everything was right.
 So it was at night, it was in the evening.
 So Lebedev said to everybody to go to bed, and he sat down and began to calculate this problem by himself.

ZR: In the morning he came to the lab, smiled, had glasses on his face, and said that the machine was right.

TRN: In the morning he came to the laboratory, he was smiling, his spectacles [glasses] were on his forehead, and he said the machine was right.
 And these two mathematicians who were sitting in different rooms made the same error, the same mistake.
 So you can see that even at that time the machine showed its advantages ... when compared to the man.

INT: Compared to human error?

TRN: Yeah, yeah.

INT: What was this problem? What was this simple problem?

TRN:  What was the problem?

ZR: It was a ballistic missile.

INT: Ballistics?

[ Yes, yes, yes.
 Guns?
 Ballistics.
 Ballistics.]

INT: Did he say that?

TRN: That was a ballistic problem.
 As the work of the machine wasn't reliable all the time, Lebedev proposed me the topic of the dissertation.

ZR: Trigger? Trigger? 

INT: Flip-flop. Flip-flop.

TRN: So he proposed not to use valves and to transmit magnetic cores.

ZR: I managed to develop such a trigger. Lebedev was my opponent [examiner] in my defence [of dissertation]. It was in 1953.

TRN: So I managed to do it and I wrote the dissertation and Lebedev was my opponent. It was in 1953.
 So, I don't know the word, when you present the dissertation, how to say that your dissertation is approved or, how do you say, is adopted, is recognized?

INT:  I think approved is okay.

TRN:  Yeah, so my dissertation was approved.
 And in 1962 I received the PhD degree, so I wrote another dissertation and it was also approved.
 And in 1969 I became an academician of our Academy of Sciences.
 And I can prove the words of Ryabinovich, who said that Lebedev was an extraordinary person ... and nobody can be compared to him.
 We have already talked a lot today. I'm already tired, maybe that's enough for today. And if we have time later, we could talk about Glushkov and other scientists of Ukraine.

[ When? Not today?
 No, not today.]

 He says that he is a bit tired and he would like to speak about Glushkov some other days.

And how much time are you going to stay here in Kyiv?

INT: I'm here until next Wednesday and I would very much like to talk to some more.

 Okay, they will find someone. Maybe the son of Boris Nikolaevich may come here. He wants to speak to you.

INT: Oh, yes.

ZR: I would like to make a small correction. I'm leaving tomorrow. I have a holiday in the summer cottage ['dacha'].
  I would like to say a few words about Glushkov and other works of our Institute.

TRN: As I'm going to leave Kyiv and maybe we won't meet anymore, I would like to say some words about Glushkov.

INT: He's going to leave us, so he has to...

INT: [inaudible] (You are probably tired). 

TRN: I will try to speak not very long.
 I will tell you about events, about things that happened when Glushkov came to us and Lebedev went to Moscow.
 Lebedev transmitted [responsibility for...] the laboratory to another person, Gnidenko, who was the academician.
 He was a member of the Academy of Sciences of the Soviet Union.
 The Kyiv machine was elaborated in the area of computer science.
 So, the creators of MESM were Pogrebinsky, Dashevsky and Shkobara.
 And at that time I was working on the SESM machine.
 So, the Kyiv machine, the work of this machine was finished when Glushkov came.
 And it was used in DUBNYA. It's the centre of nuclear power investigations.
 Malinovsky and I began the work on the system of air defence.
 And the [initiator] leader of this work was Gnidenko.
 And then these works were done with the head [leadership] of Glushkov.
 These were the first initial works in the Soviet Union.
 This was the work on the automat[izat]ion of air defence using computers.
 There was a great explosion [expansion] of works when Glushkov came.
 So, one began to create, to elaborate machines that can be called controlling ....

INT:  Controllers rather than computers?

TRN:  Machines to control technological processes.
 And the first machine was created by Malinovsky.
 This was his dissertation for which he received a Ph.D. degree.
 And I began to work on creating machines with a higher intellect.

INT: Higher intelligence?

TRN:  These were internal machines.
 These terms were introduced a bit later. And at first these were machines that realized high-level languages.
 A number of theoretical works were done [carried out] and the famous machine "Mir" was created.
 It was the machine for engineering works.
 And it had a micro-program for interpretation of high-level languages.
 And it was recognized in the world.
 The creators of this machine were Glushkov, Parabinsky, Stogniy, Lichevsky.
 And Ryabnoevich made a theoretical part of the work.
 Some other people like Klimenko and Grinchenko also took part in this work.

INT:  Can you tell me about IBM buying this, buying the "Mir"?
 IBM bought one. [...] They bought a "Mir" machine.

TRN: IBM bought the machine "Mir".

INT: Why did they buy it?

ZR: Not only out of curiosity, but also to prevent IBM competitors from producing this machine.

TRN: Maybe not only because they were so curious, but I think that because the rivals of IBM couldn't produce these machines.
 They didn't want their rivals to produce these machines.
 This is my personal opinion.
 The "Mir" machine was a micro-programmed machine.
 IBM didn't want Burroughs to buy this machine.
 It's up to me.
 We worked with Burroughs. They came to us, we spoke to them.
 And Burroughs is a rival of IBM.
 It's a big machine with a high level of serialization, high level of interpretation, high level of language.
[discussion, not translated]
 It is called "Ukraine".
 The project, machine design, was made, but the machine wasn't made.

ZR: Because there was no financing for the creation of such a machine in Ukraine.
 There was no financing.

TRN: And the main reason was that there was no good element base.

INT: What is an element base?

ZR:  Element base is basic elements.
 Transistor, internal circuits and so on.
 It wasn't also done because there was no good element bases.
 I mean transistors, circuits, not circuits.
 There were no elements.
 But the ideas of Ukraine and the "Mir" were realized.

TRN: The ideas of Ukraine and the "Mir" were realized in the Elbrus machines.
 So these ideas were used in creating the Elbrus machines in Moscow.

ZR: It was said that Elbrus was started by Lebedev, but then it was finished by Burtsev and Babayan.
 In the book about Elbrus it is said that the main architectural principles of Elbrus are the realization of high level of language, the structural interpretation of high level of language and the architecture of BSM-6.

INT: The main principles of Elbrus.

TRN: So the main principles of the Elbrus machines are...

ZR: The main principles of the Elbrus machines were the ideas of Ukraine and the structural interpretation of high level of language.

TRN: The structural interpretation of high level of languages and architecture of BSM-6 were used in these machines.
 It was a super computer, so it was the first universal machine.
 And it is recognized in the American press.

INT: I have a couple of questions. ... There was 20 years of all this wonderful work with Lebedev who was a genius, all these advances. And yet about 1967 the Soviet government decided that they would just copy the IBM machine from then on.
Why did that happen?

TRN: There was 20 years of all this wonderful work with Lebedev and in 1967 why did the government decide to copy IBM?

INT: IBM 360.

TRN: I want to finish my idea then I will answer questions.
 Our institute was famous for the intellectual development of computers or machines.
 And the institute of Lebedev was famous for computers who [which] had high productivity.
 And in the end of Lebedev's life ... Lebedev's institute just joined these two lines, these two directions or trends.
 But in our Kyiv institute of cybernetics these two directions also were combined.

ZR: Our institute was developed under the leadership of Glushkov, a macro-conveyor computer complex.
 Macro-conveyor, macro-conveyor, macro-conveyor, multi-processor, large processors, many processors, ... conveyor, assembly line.

TRN: So our institute began to elaborate multi-conveyor machines.
 So the first multi-processor complex was built in our institute.
 And it was approved by the Lebedev's institute.
 But it wasn't produced.
 Nobody began to produce it because so-called Perestroika [restructuring] began.
 And there were no financial support, so nothing.

TRN: Everything is being revived in Ukraine.
 And now our institute develops a direction that combines distributed, parallel processing of information with implementation of high-level languages.

ZR:  Now everything is being renewed in our institute.
 And now we are working at combining of parallel information processing with the realization of high-level languages.
 And the fruitfulness of this direction is based, is approved in the Japanese literature.
 For example, in the Japanese literature.

TRN: And such machines are considered to be ones of a new century.
 Such computers combine super-high productivity and very high intellect.
 So, in short, it is what I wanted to tell you. It's not in detail, of course.

implementation By the way, I want to say that the invention of machines with the structural interpretation of high-level languages,
 the first invention of these machines was made by Glushkov, myself and others.

TRN: So we made the first investigations that concerned the increase of machine intelligence.
 These were maybe one of the first investigations. It was in 1962.
 And there are some inventions in the direction that I just mentioned.

INT: How much do ordinary Ukrainian people know about this history?

TRN:  Ordinary people know very little about this, because everything was kept in secret.
 And it was, we may say, a heroic work that was done by Boris Nikolaevich.
 So, when he wrote this book, it was a heroic work, we may say.
 I would like to tell you how this book was written.
 An Englishman whose name is Williams came to us and he organized the School of the Computer Science Pioneers.
And from Moscow, he [Williams] was sent to Kyiv to talk to me. 

[INT: Why?]

ZR:  Because I was an aspirant of Lebedev, he was the director of my dissertation,
 and I worked under the direct guidance of Glushkov.
 Well, as I knew these two directions, this Englishman was sent to go to Kyiv and speak to me,
 because I worked both with Lebedev and Glushkov.

TRN:  Okay, so the conference took place in England, in London, and I presented this report there.
 And this report was approved both by Lebedev and Glushkov.
 I submitted this report, and in spite of a very good invitation to go to England together with my wife, I didn't go there.
 So I wasn't given the right to go there because of some security ideas, some security problems.
 But this report was presented. It was presented by Burtsev, who was at that time in England.
 And Burtsev, in Russian, is called the right hand of Lebedev.
 So I want to emphasize, I want to underline that our two institutes of Glushkov and of Lebedev were very friendly.

INT: Good. Can I ask now about this, the IBM 360 in the 1960s, when the Soviet government decided to copy that instead of encouraging these people with all these good ideas? [discussion] ... It seems a great pity that that happened.

TRN: It's a very complex, difficult question, because there were a lot of discussions about this here.
 Lebedev was absolutely against this copying.
 Glushkov was also against this copying. Maybe he wasn't so sure as the first one, but he was also against it.
 We had our own original designs, projects, and they could be rivals to those ones.

ZR: There was an opinion that it would be faster to copy and launch serial production, because there were few machines.

TRN:  There were few machines, and that's why the dominant idea was to take ready technology and just to begin to start producing machines.

ZR:  The deputy minister, who initially supported the copying line, later realized that this line was wrong, he opposed this line, he was removed, and he got a heart attack.
 The deputy minister of radio industry was against this copying.

TRN:  The deputy minister of radio industry was against this copying.
 He said that he was against [it], then he was dismissed, he had a heart attack after that.
TRN:  The book of Boris Nikolaevich [Malinovsky] tells all this, but I can't agree with one of his conclusions.
 There was some use [value in], there was really something good in this copying.
 So a lot of machines were produced, maybe they were not so good as if we made them ourselves, but there were a lot of them, and they satisfied the demands of the national economy.
 But I think it would be [have been] better to develop these two directions.
 I mean one of borrowing, as well as another of original design.
 As to this original direction, it was developed, but it was mainly used in the defence industry. And as to ordinary and widespread usage, that was the direction of Borum [?] that was used.
 But there was no direct borrowing, so some very important improvements were done.
 And very talented scientists were involved in this process.
 So it's a very ambiguous thing. On the one hand we can see one aspect, on the other hand we can see other aspects.
 Just as any historical event, it can be estimated in different ways.
 For example, there is one comparison. Nowadays it's very fashionable, it's very widespread, to speak against the October Revolution [of 1917].
 But at the same time this revolution gave a lot to people.
 I was born in 1918, and that's why I may speak about this based on my own life experience and on the facts that were told by my father.
 And the English Prime Minister Lloyd George said that there was a total chaos, disorder in Russia.
 But the only man who could fight against this disorder was Lenin.
 So it was Lenin, and unfortunately he was on the other side of the barricades.

INT:  One more thing as well. It seems that most of the early computers in the 1950s were used for war work, really. Ballistics and weapons ... I wonder, did you or your colleagues sometimes want to be doing more peaceful things?

ZR:  Unfortunately, it was not us who used it, it was politics. We, scientific workers, tried to do what had to be done.
 Generally speaking, unfortunately, the best, the most advanced technologies were used for defence.
 But they were not used for civil war.

TRN: Unfortunately, all of the best things that were created were used for military service, for military aims.
 Now we have a lot of problems with finances, with financial support.
 And at that time it was the Ministry of Defence that financed our work.
 Still, we are optimists, and as reality shows, everything is getting better.

INT: [He] must be getting tired, surely.

TRN: Are you satisfied with our conversation?

INT: Yes, that's wonderful, yes.
 I don't think there's anything else that I wanted to ask.

[ Thank you.
 you
 BLANK_AUDIO]

Provenance :
Created and collected by Mike Hally and donated to the LEO Computers Society

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