An interview with Barbara Dickens conducted by the LEO Computers Society as part of an Oral History Project.

Transcript :

Barbara Dickens – revised final. 

Transcribed and edited by Jon Hales, volunteer at CCH.

INT: So, starting....
Good afternoon, Barbara. [INT: reading from prepared introductory script:]
"We're recording this interview as part of the Leo Computer Society Oral History Project. The audio version and the transcript will be lodged at a central archive made available for researchers and members of the public. I'm very pleased to be interviewing you as one of our newest members of the Leo Computer Society".
And can I start by asking a few questions about your early life?
Can you tell me where you were born?

BD: I was born in London.

INT: Yes. Yeah, and

What was the... occupation of your father and mother.

BD: Oh, my father was a transport manager for Brewery. And my mother was a seamstress.
INT: All right, yes. 

BD: He was transport manager for Welfare[?] Watney Mann, well, Mann, [inaudible] and Brewery.

INT: Right, okay. And, do you have any sort of particular memories of your early life, your early schooling and that sort of thing.

BD: Oh, I remember loads of it. I could talk for days just ...

INT:I'm not asking you to do that.

BD: No, no, I went to a girl's grammar school.

INT: Did you go on to further education?

Now I got [pause] ... this is probably relevant because... I wanted to go, I did maths and physics, and I was interested in computing, and at that time only one university did a degree in computing and that was [inaudible: 'Soham'?]
And (I didn't have) high enough grades in my A-levels to go there.

INT: So what sort of period, what era was it?

BD: It was about 1968.

INT: Was it 1960s?

BD: Yeah, 68.

INT: So you were always interested in the mathematical side of things?

BD: Yes, yes ...

INT: So that's logical isn't it. And then .... What did you have in your mind about the sort of career you wanted to go in for?

BD: I didn't really have any ideas except that I wanted to get into computing somehow and I did actually. I see ICT, as it was then, I think advertising for people to do sandwich courses. So I joined them to do a sandwich course in computing, believe it or not, but I did actually leave there for personal reasons. And I ended up in Blackpool working in the civil service but still looking at a way to getting into computing 

INT: Yes, that's fine. And, had you at the time when you started, had you heard anything about Leo or Lyons, the company?

Well, I knew Lyons, of course, from the tea houses. 

INT: Yes.

BD: But I only knew about Leo after I'd actually joined ICT and they said about Leo and you know the history of it. So I did not at the beginning, know what the history was.

INT: So you didn't really know that Lyons had produced the very world's very first business computer.

BD: Oh, I did know that, yes.

INT: Do you have any friends or family who've gone into the computer world?

BD: Oh yes, lots. I mean, I spent my career in it and actually my husband was in computing as well. 

INT: In the same company or...

BD: I met him when he was working for ICL.

INT: - Yes.
We both worked for different companies. And then we both worked together again for BP, different parts of BP. 

INT: Yes.

BD: But most of our friends, the people we've kept in contact with and still do, were in computing or in IT. 

INT: That's interesting [pause]. Thanks. How did you actually come to work for Leo? I think you said you worked for the DNS [Department for National Savings], is that right? 

BD: That's right. When I was in the civil service in Blackpool, they asked [it] for people who interested in taking an aptitude test and then, you know, for computing. And I was working for the the tax office then. But I took the aptitude test. [You know], got a good mark, got offered a job with the Department for National Savings ERNIE [Electronic Random Number Indicator Equipment], as it was as a maintenance programmer on [a] Leo 326.

INT: Yes, because the DNS at that time, they were really part of the GPO [General Post Office], weren't they?

BD: Yes, that's right.

INT: The GPO had a large number of Leos across the country.

BD: Yes.

INT: So when you were actually working for them, what was your particular job?

BD: Well, there wasn't at that time in the late 60s, most of the programmes had already been written. So you [....] were doing maintenance, which no-one wanted to do because, and in fact, it's actually harder maintaining something someone else has written. It's like unravelling old knitting and knitting it together again. So it was maintaining the existing programmes that actually a lot of them are for premium savings bonds with the names and addresses or whatever or that type of thing and whatever you're doing, or that type of thing.

INT: When you wrote to us that you were involved in Intercode. I'm afraid I'm pretty ignorant on that sort of thing. Could you explain in fairly simple terms about Intercode?

BD: Well, it was a language to give computer instructions but very, very, very simple instructions. So, for example, if you had a lot of penguin books of different colours on shelves and you wanted to arrange them into colours on each shelf, you know, orange on one, red on another, yellow on another, Intercode would enable you one step at a time, to take one book out then take another book out, then move the first one to the second space. Very, very laborious. And lots and lots of instructions just something as simple as arranging books of a different colour on a shelf. Whereas the modern computer languages. you can just say the equivalent of 'Put all the red books on the top shelf'.
Does that make sense?

INT: [Laughs] So, um, you know, you were involved in sort of doing maintenance. Do I understand that sort of sorting out problems other people had made in using it.

BD: Well, it might be, but it might be something new that came along. For example, all premium bonds had nine digits, you know, "BB 623" or whatever, or numbers. Eventually, premium bonds became so popular that you needed ten digits for all the numbers. And because computers space had been expensive, was very expensive, every single program just had room for nine digits. So every single one would have to be altered for 10 digits. So, not necessarily mistakes ... [Umm] Probably more [pause] things that [pause] know, know-knowns. If you know [Umm]...

INT: So you mentioned premium bonds. So, that's interesting that you could say that Leo was involved in premium bonds. And it was Leo. 

BD: Oh, yes.

INT: How does... [inaudible] you always heard about Ernie. How does Ernie relate to the Premium Bonds that Leo was dealing with?

BD: Well, ERNIE it was a random number generator and at that time it had nothing to do with Leo's really. Someone very clever devised something where they counted [...]. There were two separate neon tubes, you know like kitchen lights, neon tubes, and they counted the gas particles. And they had two different ones and subtracted the numbers from one from the other. You got something which was a number which, sometimes was
Premium Bonds number and that was a winner. 

Once they got all those numbers, Leo had to take the numbers, find out if that number had actually been sold and the name and address of the person it had been sold to. So you could send them a nice little cheque in the post and, well, first of all, send something to, I think it was the Royal Statistics to get a certificate of randomness. I mean, this is all 50 years ago.

INT: Yes, I'm glad to bring back some memories. And then how long then were you working for DNS?

BD: Right. Oh, I'm trying to think how long. Probably only about four years, three or four years.

INT: And what sort of persuaded you leave them and go on to something else?

BD: Well, I wanted to work on more modern computer equipment and more modern computer languages. And it was still very 'civil service' ..
You know, you could only be promoted the next level up if they thought you could be at that level in any job in the civil service. And I thought that was daft. And I can remember going for a promotion interview and they said, if you don't get it this time, what will you do? And I said, well, I'll leave. So I did.

INT: And where did ... you go on to.

BD: I went and worked a little while, probably about a year for Westminster City Council, which was quite interesting.  And then after that...

INT: working on one of their computers?

BD: Yes, yes, yes, to their computer centre. Yeah, yeah, yeah.  I was a senior programmer then.

INT: What were they using?

BD: They were using ICL's next machine up, called a System 4. And it wasn't Intercode. It was a different computer language. [which] Well, it was user code and COBOL ... it was quite interesting.

INT: And so, then you were with the Westminster Council for a while and then did you go on to somewhere else after that?

BD: Yeah, BP. 

INT: BT? 

BD: BP.

INT: Oh, BP, of course, yes, right. 

BD: Petroleum, yeah.

INT: Was BP... were BP and Shellmex still together at the time, or was it separate?

BD: That's very interesting because they were, after I joined. They had already announced that the marketing arm, which was Shellmex BP, was going to be split in to BP and Shell because there was a government monopolies commission that said they had to be split.
So they had something called brand separation, of, for example, all the petrol stations were branded as B P or Shell.
And all the computer systems had to be split, more or less duplicated, but split with one known as BP and one known as Shell. I joined Shellmex BP for, it was three months, I worked on brand separation and then I worked for BP. So I worked on altering the programmes just for BP.

INT: So this would have been after the Leo period, because Shell did have a Leo III. I'm not sure exactly where it was, ... 

BD: Wythenshawe

INT:Sorry, yeah? 

BD: Wythenshawe. 

INT: Oh, right, yes, yes. So a couple of machines were sold to Shell in Australia.

BD: Well, BP had one as well. BP did as well.

INT: - In this country?

BD: Yes, yes.  But I then worked on a Univac machine.

INT: Yeah. Yeah, right. 

BD: Yes. So that ended my days with Leos and Intercode.

INT: So you obviously [...] what brought you to us is the fact you get the magazine,
in which you saw the article which we had submitted.

BD: That's right, yes.

INT: It's good that you joined us. So then... when did you actually sort of end your career?

BD:  When ...? 

INT: Yes.

BD: Probably about ... how would I know? That's 47. Oh, about 20 years ago.

INT: Oh, yes. So that was ... the end, I assume, was with BP, was it?.

BD: No, no, it wasn't. I was at BP for many many years and the last project I worked on there was to integrate all the European computer systems. So I took my redundancy money and I was lucky enough I got a super job with London Borough Tower Hamlets where computing was only part of it. I had Planning, Building Control, communications, a whole lot under my little remit. And computing, of course. 

INT: You mentioned the European Community. You said you were involved in that computer system?

BD: Well, no, it was BP doing a European-wide one. Every country had their own computer systems.

INT: Oh right, yes, yes.

BD: Basically, doing the same thing. We were doing a European systems program to get everyone on more or less the same systems.

INT: Right, yes. So I was going to ask... eventually I assume you're retired at this point.

BD: - Yeah.

INT: You have told me how you met your husband – at work, so to speak.

INT: [Umm] Do you have children now?

BD: [Confused, inaudible- Yeah. - Our children.]

INT: And how do you then, so in your spare time, what do you find – apart from housework – what do you find to occupy yourself?

BD: I don't do housework. I do [have] a cleaner for that. Well, we had horses for many years. We kept horses at livery for many years. A lot of travelling, but of course that's gone on hold this year, [during Covid-19 lockdown]. 

Luckily, because we're both [...] because my cousin [...] is a maths graduate. But we were both at school very, you know, know maths and whatever. But we've both always always had an interest in the arts. So we spend a lot more time reading, going exhibitions, learning about art history. So, you name it.

INT: Yes, yes. I'm very interested in arts as well, yes. So it's a good diversion, isn't it, from computers ...

BD: Yes, it is. And the interesting thing, though, is I think that... maybe, it's just the people I know, but most of the sort of people like maths and science graduates I know seem to have an interest in the arts. Whereas the arts graduates have no interest
at all in science and say, you know, almost pleased that they say, "Oh, I don't understand this." I find that a bit annoying.

INT: That is interesting, yes, isn't it? Well, I don't suppose that you, the next question I'd ask you is, if you had any contact with any, ex-people who worked on Leo, but....
Possibly the answer would be no[?]

BD:  Well, only a couple of them on the Leos. Most of them are later than that. 

INT: You do meet up?

BD: Yes, but only not many.

INT: And I see you're still meeting up with those sort of people, ex-colleagues... ?

BD: Oh, yes, yes.

INT: Well, I imagine that in that case some of them are members of the Leo Computer Society.

BD: Well, I mentioned it to them, but they don't seem that, you know, bothered really. The fact that it was Leo was sort of incidental. It was just one thing. There were so many other things ... things.

INT: Yes, yes, yes.  Yes, of course, you probably know that the computer society to &&&& people who worked on the Leo and also people like myself who have an interest in it. We have these reunions. Unfortunately, of course, we weren't able to have it this year because of the virus [Covid-19] but you probably know that one is planned for next April, assuming that things ...

BD: I've got the date down. [Good luck.]

INT: Well, let's hope it does come off.
Another thing I was going to ask you is, do you happen to be a member of any computer society, not Leo Society, like the British Computer Society,. or the IEE or any of those organisations? 

BD: Yeah, well, I was an MBCS. I was Member of the British Computer Society.

INT: You are, yes. 

BD: Well, I was, but I've let my membership lapse.

INT: Oh right, yes. Did you find it worthwhile to be a member? Did you sort of have any activities with them?

BD: Not really. For one reason or another I just didn't think they actually um .... If you're a certified engineer, it means something. It didn't seem to mean anything .... There were just too many cowboys ... I didn't think it had enough teeth. 

INT: - Yeah, you weren't, shouldn't feel you were on common ground with them. Yeah. And the other question I was going to ask you, have you read or written any articles or anything about computers? Does that come your way?

BD: I look after our local Art Society website. 

INT: Yes. 

BD: I, you know, I still keep it in touch with things like that.
Yes, it's an art society. That's why I do their websites. It's still just the odd bit of thing.
Yes, I do read articles about computers. On computers, yes. I despair at a lot of things.

INT:  You read our article in the Shell magazine?

BD: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, I despair articles. [confused, both talking]

INT: Now, I was wondering if you read it or what you might call 'learned' articles about computers?

BD: Yes, yes, I do. Yes, I do.

INT: Yes. Well, I think.... Really, that's very interesting.
Do you have any sort of other anecdotes you'd like to share with me about your
sort of time with Leo or other computers that sort of crosses your mind?

BD: Yes, yes. I'd like to say one thing that ... when the civil service did their trawl for people that were interested in computing. All sorts of people from all parts of the civil service applied to. And, at the end, it was just how well you did on the aptitude test.
So there was probably 30 per cent women you know, all different backgrounds, you know, men and women. And it was whether you could do it or not. And I must admit, I found all this about women in computing and all this, I found it a bit rubbish, really.
I didn't find discrimination. It all depended on how you do the job.

INT: Yeah.

BD: If you say, I can't be on call during the night, if something goes wrong, because I have a young family, then you can't expect to be a chief programmer. It's one of these things. [....] But there was honestly no sex discrimination. So I'd like to say, that. It was very egalitarian.

INT: Thank you.

BD: I think that people.... Because .... because the computer time was rationed – and computer equipment was expensive – all of it. We had to test things properly rather than test them on the public. So I think I learnt ever such a lot about discipline in those early days.

INT: which ...

BD: It's all a bit easier to do stuff now. That's all I'd like to say really.

INT: That's very interesting. Well, I think probably.... We have come to the end of what I wanted to ask you. Very interesting having you to interview. And now, I've got to add a bit in conclusion, which comes from the guide notes, which has to say:
"This interview of Barbara Dickens has been recorded by the Leo Computer Society as part of an oral history project to document the earliest use of electronic computers in business applications. Any opinions expressed are those of the interviewee, not of the Society. Copyright and any other intellectual property rights of this interview in recorded form and in any transcription thereof remains with the Leo Computer Society".

..So that's it. Now I'm going to now switch off, end it there, and then I think possibly you might disappear. What I'm going to do ... 
When I switch off, the recording automatically ends. And then I'm just going to check the recording. And if there's any problem, I'll come back to you. Probably not. But anyway, so I think at this point we say cheerio.

BD: Cheerio [inaudible].

INT: The next step will be, of course, to send the audio part of this interview on to [Mike Tyzack]. 

[Interview ends].

Provenance :
Transferred from Frank Land's Dropbox to Lisa McGerty

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