An interview with John Wilson conducted by Neville Lyons on 8 June c. 2019, as part of the LEO Computers Society Oral History Project.

Transcript :

Interview with John Wilson by Neville Lyons. Interview conducted via Zoom online meeting.

Transcribed and edited by Jon Hales, volunteer at CCH

INT: There you are. Recording in progress. It's the 8th of June [2020 or 2021]. 
I'm Neville Lyons. 
I'm interviewing  John Wilson to give us the story of his involvement with Lyons or with Leo Computers from the earliest days. 
So, good afternoon, John. 
"We're recording this interview as part of the Leo Computers Society oral history project. The audio version and the transcript will be lodged at a central archive and made available for researchers and members of the public". 

Although this is a Leo project, I think I'm right in thinking that you worked for Lyons and not for Leo, which will come up in the course of our discussion. So, before we get into
 your career with the company, I'm going to ask you to introduce yourself, starting with
 your very early life. Can you tell me where and when you were born?

JW: My name is John Wilson. I was born in 1939, in March 1939, prior to the war. I was born in Buckinghamshire. My father was a district manager with Lyons.

INT: Oh, he was a district manager with Lyons.

JW: Yes.

INT: When you say district manager, what exactly does that cover?

JW:  He covered a district of London. There were a number of districts. My grandfather was
 another district manager in Lyons.

INT: Oh, right. Well, perhaps I can go into a bit more detail later on. Before we go into your actual career, a few other questions. Can you tell me where you went to school and did  you have any further education at possibly university?

JW:  No, I didn't. I went to a minor public school called Silcoats in Wakefield. I took my GCE
 O-levels. I got eight O-levels. I did not have any plans to go on to university. I didn't
 really know what to do at all. I think I wanted to go into the accountancy at one stage. I
 had a relative who was in accountancy, but they wouldn't help me. I had no careers advice from school and so I went to work for my father.

INT: So that was as simple as that really. Well, not that simple, but at least your father
 was working for Lyons and so you went to work for him. Can you tell me when you started that?

JW:  I started when I was 17 and a half.

INT: So that would have been what year?

JW:  1956.

INT: 1956, yes. And so more or less a family relationship brought you in. Can you tell me something more about that? To get the job you obviously would have had to have been interviewed by someone and somewhere.

JW:  I can't really remember being interviewed. There was a sales manager above my father of course and I think he just okayed it and I went in and worked as looking after Woolworths accounts, their administration and I worked in the offices there.

INT: Did you say Woolworths?

JW:  Yes.

INT: Oh, so in other words...

JW:  Woolworths was a big customer of Lyons at the time, sold a lot of tea and they had a
 different system of recording their sales and I worked at that one for the Nottinghamshire district.

INT: Oh yes. So it's interesting to know that because I don't think many people realise that Woolworths were a customer of Lyons. So that's really, really interesting. So you said you were based in Nottingham?

JW:  In Nottingham, yes. Cockford Street, Nottingham.

INT: So how did that come about? Because your father wasn't in Nottingham, was he?

JW:  Yes he was. He'd moved from London to Bristol. There was a problem with the government coupon system and he took the blame for that and was banished to Scotland. After the war he was brought back as they promised him, he would be to Nottingham.

INT: Oh right. And so that's interesting, he went to Scotland during the war. He was still with Lyons?

JW:  Yes.

INT: So what was in Scotland?

JW:  Scotland was another district and he was district manager in Scotland.

INT: So they were supplying products to Scotland, but I think I may be right in saying that in Scotland there weren't any restaurants or tea shops?

JW:  No, it was purely grocery. A van delivery system of Lyons goods to shops.  [not? catering]

INT: Yes, yes, that's interesting. So you then were working with Lyons in Nottingham and
 how long were you doing that for then?

JW:  Just under a year. And then the sales manager, Mr. Hollier, invited me to go to London for training. I was unable to take money because of the insurance system, so I couldn't start a journey or anything like that. And he invited me to go to London for training and I took over an area from Oxford Street to Hertfordshire, teaching ladies groups how to make tea, would you believe?

INT: How to make tea? You mean putting tea in the pot and all that?

JW:  Yes, heating the pot and using the correct tea and the correct volumes etc. That was
 my job. They gave me a little van and at 18 and a half I was free to roam all around London booking myself into women's meetings.

INT: Into women's?

JW:  Ladies meetings. Church ...

INT: Like women's institute?

JW:  Yes, generally attached to churches.

INT: Oh really? And you were literally demonstrating how to make pots of tea?

JW:  Yes.

INT: So we didn't have tea bags in those days?

JW:  No, we had Rockingham pots and a little pack of tea which was the required amount to put in a teapot. One teaspoon per person and one for the pot, if you may remember.

INT: Yes, I remember that. So, it was Lyons tea obviously in packets or was it red label and green label?

JW:  Yes, it was red label and I demonstrated.

INT: Which I think was supposed to be the best.

JW:  Yes.

INT: Yes, that's most interesting. And did you, were you working long hours each day?

JW:  Yes, because some of the meetings were in the evenings. So I sometimes did two meetings a day. One in the morning or afternoon and one in the evening. But I didn't do that every day, of course.

INT: And did they arrange accommodation for you in London?

JW:  No, I lived with my uncle to start with, who also worked for Lyons.

INT: He was working for Lyons too?

JW:  Yes.

INT: So perhaps you could just, before I ask you any more questions then, we started talking about your family connections. You had your father and you said your uncle and your grandfather.

JW:  Yes.

INT: And he was another Mr. Wilson?

JW:  No, no. Perhaps I should explain how the name arrived. At the same time as the Salmon & Glucksteins were leaving Holland, there was a Jewish Nyberg family who were mostly in the diamond polishing industry. They were affected by religious persecution and they fled to England.

INT: From Holland?

JW:  From Holland.

INT: Yes.

JW:  And the Nyberg family fled to Holland.

INT: Yes.

JW:  There was a son who was born in Amsterdam, Simon, who was also known as Samuel, and he  began a relationship with a lady producing three sons. But they were brought up in Church of England schools. He didn't marry the lady. In fact, he married somebody else after a trip to New York and married her in New York and is buried in New York. Those three sons, the first one was Sidney George Nyberg, who was my grandfather and he began working for Lyons aged 14 and a half. His other two brothers joined in 1900.

INT: All right.

JW:  I have my grandfather's cigarette box which he was presented by the directors of Lyons in 1946 after he'd done 50 years.

INT: 1946?

JW:  Yes.

INT: Yes.

JW:  He did. His initials are wrong and he didn't smoke.

INT: Still a valuable present.

JW:  Yes. Yes, indeed.

INT: So that your current grandfather, Mr. Nyberg.  What was his job with Lyons?

JW:  Well, I don't know what it started as, but on his CV here, he was a PA to Joseph Lyons,
 banker to the manager at the Old Gaiety. He was an early member of the tea agents department, became district superintendent of London. He became the manager of Lyons chocolate division. He also was an international [sport], he was a very good tennis player and he played with Lyons, a first team with Julius Salmon, Mr. Gluckstein, Meinard and a couple of others. He served in the HAS and was wounded in the first world war.

INT: HAS .... Do you mean HAC?

JW:  Yes, Honourable Artillery Company.

INT: Yes, HAC. Yes. Yes.
So that's very interesting. Had a very interesting career.
And so he was, .... was he based at Cadby Hall?

JW:  I presume so.

INT: Yes. Yes.
I don't know when they moved into Cadby Hall.
Oh, well, they moved in, Lyons were in Cadby Hall from 1894.
So if he was at the headquarters, that's where he was. 

JW: Yes. Well, he, yes.
 I don't know how many PAs Joe Lyons had.

INT: Well, I mean, that's interesting to use the word PA because I thought PA was quite a modern expression.
It's interesting that Joe Lyons had a PA, I presume that it's a sort of rather glorified secretary.

JW:  Possibly. Yes. I don't know the exact terms.
 I just was quoting from a sheet of paper that was given to me.
Do you remember Joseph Lyons having a banqueting manager at the Old Gaiety?

INT: That is something I didn't know about. The Old Gaiety, was that the theatre?

JW:  I don't know.

INT: Yeah. You say it's called the Old Gaiety.

JW:  That's on this piece of paper that I had.  There was a Gaiety theatre in the West End, but it sounds as if it was an Old Gaiety restaurant.

INT: Possibly we ought to look that up, just to clarify that one.
Well, anyway, that's interesting. So going then into, when did you sort of complete your career? Did you get any other jobs within Lyons?

JW:  Now, after I'd been in London for a year and a bit, I was called up for the services, national service.

INT: Yes.

JW:  And I did my service, I was given the choice of about six regiments to join, but the army put me into the pay corps, which wasn't one of them. I had an O level in maths.

INT: Yeah. Oh, well, it seems to be the logical direction somehow.

JW:  Yes.

INT: Yes. So where do you do your service?

JW:  I trained in Wiltshire to start with a ten-week square-bashing.

INT: Was that Devizes?

JW:  Yes, it was.

INT: Yes, I knew they had their headquarters there, yes.

JW:  Yes. And then I was transferred to the Green Jackets.

INT: Yeah.

JW:  They were serving at the time in Cyprus.  I had some leave before I went to Cyprus. I was there for about six months and then the day I arrived, peace was signed. ['peace' was possibly the end of conflict in Cyprus in 1955-1959].

INT: That's a good sign.

JW:  I spent six months swimming in the seas and returned to Blighty about six months later and had another three weeks disembarkation leave.  So my first year was very nice.

INT: Sounds like it. Did you get any promotion while you were serving?

JW:  Yes, the pay system was that you automatically became a corporal.

INT: Yes, yes.

JW:  And I was excused all duties.  I had a wonderful, wonderful career there.

INT: That sounds good. So many people, well, quite a few people didn't enjoy their national service, but I'm glad you did.

JW:  I played a lot of cricket there.

INT: Ah, yes.

JW:  Both for the Green Jackets and for the School of Infantry [which] was at Warminster.  We played against Devon Dumplings and Isingaray [unclear] and all those black [?] teams.

INT: Well, it's lovely to hear such a varied career. But did I understand that you at one time you were at Greenford?

JW:  No, I never worked at Greenford. I used to go down there for meetings.
 After I'd done my national service, I returned to Lyons and took over an area, Croydon.
 I was getting nowhere in the company. My father's successor invited me to come to Worksop and I've been here ever since.

INT: So Lyons at Worksop was it?

JW:  Well, there was a 'journey', we call them 'journeys', where we were responsible for selling to all the outlets in this area.

INT: Yes, yes.  So that's where you remained and where you retired.
Yes.  I was put in touch with you by, I imagine, a friend of yours. Was that Joan Leightan?

INT: Yes. You knew her husband?

JW:  Yes.  Alex was in charge of the advertising store at Greenford.  We used to go down to our meetings at the Greenford. And we always used to finish up at his store to collect various admin and advertising things.

INT: Yes, yes.

JW:  So I knew him quite well.

INT: You knew him quite well, yes. And then ... having discussed quite a bit about Lyons, were you aware of Leo while you were serving?

JW:  Yes, I had various jobs.
 The job changed quite considerably over the years in that as the multiples expanded and the smaller shops decreased, jobs changed.  I started off selling from a van.  We then went on to cars and sold generally to wholesalers and co-op warehouses.  And my title then changed very from being a salesman to an account executive, ... a regional executive.  And then I finished up as a regional manager.  Funnily enough, the same region as my father had had. So nepotism was not only part of Lyons.

INT: Yes, yes. So going back to my previous question about Leo, did you get aware of Leo and what it was doing for the company?

JW:  Yes, it affected me. Initially, because the supplies to multiples had to be delivered within a week, it was vital that we got the order in very quickly. We started to ring the offices with the supply figures, which took a long time on unpleasant weather. We'd be in a telephone booth – rather smelly at times - rattling money into the slot machine. And then Leo came online and we were given order sheets with what we always used to call soup bowls, where we put a line across a number and that was the registered as the volume that was required.  So that was the first information that we got for Leo was on hand for us. And that worked very well. Unfortunately, occasionally there were there were postal strikes and so we couldn't get the posting quickly enough. And there was a system set up where the catering supplies van which came down from Scotland via Wakefield down the A1 and the M1.  And we used to meet that van and hand over our orders there.  So that we were able to get our sheets to London, to Greenford as quickly as usual during the postal strikes.
 The main information I always got from Leo was when I became a regional manager. The information that Leo gave us was absolutely amazing. We used - within three or four days - I would get back all the sales figures by product by size so that I could see how things were going in my territory.

INT: How was that transmitted to you then?

JW:  They were posted. Yes, they were posted.

INT: So it was information that Leo had obtained to be passed on to you and others.
 Yes. Yes, yes, yes.

JW:  So that that was a magnificent help to our jobs.

INT: Yes, yes. Did you actually see Leo during the course of your career?

JW:  No. When I first joined from Olaf Street, I was told that the Leo electrical work was held there, the power units were held there because there wasn't enough power in Greenford.  So I was told that wires were sent back to Olaf Street. 

INT: Did you say Olaf Street?

JW:  Olaf Street, yes. That is in Shepherd's Bush? Shepherd's Bush, yes.
 But I didn't know what Leo was at that time. I just knew that's what it was there for.

INT: So what sort of year are we talking about now?

JW:  We're talking about 1963.

INT: Yes. So by that stage, we would have been into Leo III. That was one of the more developed bodies of Leo.  So you went on and when did you actually retire?

JW:  I retired after 40 years service in 1996.
 At that time, you may remember that the ... Lions as it was then, were being taken over by Devros, a sausage manufacturer. But he falsified the figures and was banned from holding directorships.  At that time, he was an American and he wanted to bring in the American system of paying pensions, which was vastly inferior to the Lions one.
 I was offered redundancy and was pleased to take it.

INT: And who did you say was trying to take over Lions? 

JW: Devro, a sausage skin manufacturer. Eventually, it was taken over. The company had already been taken over by Allied Lions at the time. And then eventually, Tetley joined Lions.

INT: Well, I think they joined Lions in the early 70s.

JW:  Yes. Yes. And that was a tremendous help to us because they were the first really into teabags.

INT: Yes. 

JW: And we expanded quite quickly after that.  And eventually, when round teabags were invented, after a long struggle of being sort of second and third in the market, we became brand leaders.  The volumes increased quite considerably, not only in the retail trade, but also in the catering trade.

INT: Yes, yes. I suppose your main rivals, possibly on the tea side, were Lipton's? 

JW: Lipton's, yes, Brooke Bonds.

INT: Brooke Bonds, yes, yes. Well, that's very interesting.
 So did you actually cease working when you retired or did you do other jobs at all?

JW:  I worked for the National Trust for about 20 years in a local house. Mr. Straw's house, which is half a mile from where I live.

INT: Yes, yes. That was a voluntary job then. 

JW: Yes.

INT: Unpaid, presumably. 

JW: Yes.

INT: I haven't asked you about your home life. Were you married before or you weren't married before you joined Lions? I imagine you were too young. 

JW: I married a gorgeous young girl in Worksop and we have three children, two boys and a girl. Interestingly, the second son works for Imperial Tobacco, 

Yes. Oh, yes.

JW:... which of course was the firm that Salmon and Gluckstein, they took over Salmon and Gluckstein.

INT: Yes.  Yes, yes. 

JW: He's been there for 25 years. 

INT: Still there, is he? 

JW: Yes.  My oldest son went to university and married a lady there who, in fact, is related to the Salmon family.

INT: Oh, yes. Do you know what the relationship is? 

JW: Yes, it's cousin to Michael Salmon and the Atwells who own the symbol [?] biscuits.

INT: Oh, yes, yes. So that's another Lions connection that you've got in your family.

JW:  We seem to have gone full circle.

INT: Now, look, I've got a notice. I don't know whether you have it. It says running out of time, this meeting will end in 10 minutes. So, I mean, we haven't got a lot more to say. You told me when you retired and you told me a little bit about how you knew about the Leo computers.
Is there something that you'd like to tell me that we haven't covered?

JW:  Well, I'm just ... wondering if a number of the management people who worked for Leo would know Arnold Nyberg, who was Sidney's son, who worked for Lions for 40-odd years.  He ran the Halls of Glider [?] restaurant, which was, I believe, opposite Cadby Hall.

INT: Oh, yes, yes. I think that was in Spike House, wasn't it?

JW:  Possibly. He started in 1926 and did a three-year course under Junior Salmon, and he did six years in the Navy. And he was one of the first people to be gazetted after the landing in D-Day, getting a DSC [military medal].

INT: What was his name, John?

JW:

INT: And the relationship to you is ...?

JW:  He was Sidney George's son, my uncle, who I stayed with in London.
 He ran the Halls of Glider [?], but he also worked for Propax and Froude and Findus and that group of companies, but they may have met him at the Halls of Glider [?] in London.
 I don't know whether any Leo people ... management people went into there.
That was a management restaurant, wasn't it?

INT: I believe so. I don't know about it myself, but I have heard of it.
 I think they were trained,...  among other things, they were training people on food, you know, for the airlines.

JW:  Yes. Well, Arnold was, in fact, in charge of the airlines, the BOAC at that time.

INT:  Yes.

JW:  So that may have been part of the job.

INT: The other thing I didn't ask you is, you're a member now of the Leo Computer Society. How is it you came to join fairly recently?

JW: Well, having spoken to Alex Leightan, he was approached by somebody in there, they were a bit disappointed that very few people who used Leo actually were members of the Leo Society.

INT: Yes.

JW:  And they said that they would like someone else to join and I offered my services.  I don't know what help I could have been, but I joined up willingly.

INT: It's interesting to have you on board, John, because we've been running these Leo forums on Zoom and anybody a member of the Leo Society is welcome to join in. I don't know whether there's going to be a next one. We certainly have our Leo committee meetings online, Zoom, but if there's going to be another one, then that will be notified to all members.
 And I think we mentioned Alex Leightan, he also joined fairly shortly before he died, sadly.

JW:  Yes.

INT: Yes. So that's been very interesting talking to you. And so I think if we've got no more, in view of the time, we ought to bring this to a close.

 And what I have to say now is that: "This interview of John Wilson has been recorded by the Leo Computer Society as part of an oral history project to document the earliest use of electronic computers in business applications. Any opinions expressed are those of the interviewee and not of the society. Copyright and any other intellectual property rights of this interview is in recorded form and in any transcription thereof remains with the Leo Computer Society.

 So, John, thank you very much. It's most interesting. I'm very glad I offered to be your interviewer.  And very nice to speak to you and I hope, you know, through the Leo Society, we shall be able to keep in touch.

 My pleasure to talk to you.

INT:  All the best. And I'm now going to cease the recording.  And... pause, stop recording. Yeah.

[Interview ends]

Provenance :
Transferred from Frank Land's Dropbox to Lisa McGerty

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